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Earth 616? Edit

Seems pretty obvious that everything that happened in Age of Ultron (except for issue #10) is NOT Earth 616...shouldn't we change all of the character references with a TRN? Or do we wait and find out what # universe it is? Jedi.jesse (talk) 07:12, June 26, 2013 (UTC)

Marvel has confirmed time and time again that the event takes place in Earth-616 continuity. --Spencerz (talk) 07:27, June 26, 2013 (UTC)
But none of it ended up happening...they altered the timeline. I suppose you could say it was all 616 and then he changed 616...but doesn't that mean it became two timelines? (Or three? the one in issues #1-7, the one in #8-9, and the new one) Jedi.jesse (talk) 20:58, June 26, 2013 (UTC)
I guess I'm probably over-thinking it here. Jedi.jesse (talk) 21:01, June 26, 2013 (UTC)
Don't worry, you're not. Belive me. I think you didn't come to the point where you started drawing different graphics for the events of Age of Ultron ha ha ha.
Age of Ultron happened in Earth-616. That's the only reason why there aren't two Wolverines and two Invisible Woman in the present. I know it's weird and it kinda contradicts the way Marvel handles alternate realities created by time travelling, but it's the only explanation.
And Marvel already gave a designation for the Age of le Fay reality (Earth-62111), and we already created the page for it and most of its characters.
It can be implyied Age of Ultron #1 to #5 took place in Earth-616. And issue #6 follows the story of Earth-61112, where the Wolverine and Invisible Woman from that universe travel back in time and accidentally create Earth-62111. Then the Wolverine from Earth-61112 travelled back in time to Earth-616, where he met the Wolverine of that reality trying to prevent Age of Ultron (last seen in issue #5).
That should've created yet another alternate timeline, but the existence of only one Wolverine and one Invisible Woman after they returned from their little trip proves they magically didn't create a new timeline but just altered theirs.
--The ADour-incible ADour (talk) 21:07, June 26, 2013 (UTC)
I don't think you can say that there was only one Wolverine and one Invisible Woman after the time-traveling. Quite the opposite, Tom Brevoort has specifically said that they "can't be" the characters currently in F4 or Wolverine & the X-Men. --HED - HalfElfDragon 00:29, June 30, 2013 (UTC)
Axel Alonso says there would be two of each as well.--HED - HalfElfDragon 20:28, July 1, 2013 (UTC)
So there were two Invisible Women and two Wolverines in Earth-616 until the mutliversal shockwave hit and deleted each one of them? It would seem like it.
--The ADour-incible ADour (talk) 20:31, July 1, 2013 (UTC)
I think I solved this thing. People, welcome Earth-TRN279.
--The ADour-incible ADour (talk) 21:58, July 1, 2013 (UTC)

Apparently, the reason the timeline was altered was that the time travel was accomplished using Doctor Doom's Time Machine (hereafter refereed to as DDTM) That time machine apparently sends the user not to the past of an alternate earth, but sends the user to the past of the earth it is in thus enabling the user to alter the timeline. Except when it doesn't. While other time-travel methods can create an alternate universe, Doctor Doom's Time Machine™ actually alters the past by inserting you into it. Except when it doesn't In other words, DDTM is a paradox generator. Except when it isn't.

Let me explain:
1) Utron takes over the earth and goes all genocidal on everyone.
2) Earth 6-6's remaining plucky heroes (plus Doc Ock in Peter Parker's body) discover Nick Fury (naturally) has a DDTM in a super-secret base that the near-omnipotent Ultron somehow missed despite the fact it contained a god-dam TIME MACHINE THAT CAN TOTALLY RUIN HIS PLANS. Oh and he also happens to have the Ultimate Nullifier?! Don't believe me? Go look at page 10 of AoU issue 5. Go on, look at it. See if you don't see it there. It's even mentioned by name!
3) So, what with it being the end of the world and everything this would be the perfect time to use The Ultimate Nullifier on Ultron. So, instead of taking the Ultimate Nullifier with them and using it on Ultron, the heroes instead ignore tha fact that they have the Ultimate Nullfier and instead decide to proceed with not-much-of-a-plan that will almost certainly get them all killd while not stopping Ultron at all. This plan works as expected: They all die before ever even finding Ultron. Avengers: 0. Ulton: Over 9000
4) Wolverine (being Wolverine) goes back in time to kill Hank Pym.
5) Wolverine arrives in Earth-61111, not the past of Earth-616.
6) It wasn't pretty, but it was the best he was at what he does. Oh, and Hank Pym is dead.
7) Wolverine uses DDTM to come back home to aforementioned sup-secret bunker.
8) No, wait, they broke the universe and now it's Earth-61112. No, wait... that can't right... using DDTM always sens you back to your own universe, doesn't it? Ok, whatever....
9) Morgana Le Fay nukes Wolverine (oh, and also most of New York) so naturally Wolverine heals up real good and just goes back in time again. Somehow ends up in what I'm calling Earth-616 2.0 (we can make up a better name later)
10) Wolverine stops his past self (I say alternate-universe self from Earth-thisisveryconfusing) from killing Hank Pym. Pym instead designs a computer virus that can shut down Ultron a long time in the future exactly when it needs to be done and never before (don't even get me started on how impossibly absurd that one is).
11) Wolverine uses DDTM to return to the present after conveniently killing his time-duplicate despite the fact that Wolverine can't kill wolverine with just a claw. The only way to kill Wolverine is to obliterate all of his organic matter, including his adamantium-laced bones. Otherwise, he'll just regenerate. Or didn't you people see Nitro burn away all everything except his bones during Civil War? Guess what, he healed from that. Bone marrow is alive, or hadn't you heard? And no, destroying his brain doesn't kill him either. Oh, and Adamantium can't cut Adamantium, so no: He didn't get decapitated... not that I think decapitation would kill Wolverine. It doesn't kill Deadpool after all! But we're supposed to believe that one of the Wolverines is dead despite the fact we didn't see him die, nobody saw the body, it happened in a cave off-camera, and oh yeah HE'S FREAKING WOLVERINE! But I digress.
12) For once, DDTM works like it says on the label and Wolverine returns to the present of Earth 616 2.0... or did he??? Oh, and the universe shatters or something and nobody understands what just happened. Including the readers.

Is that about right? So.. DDTM is... flawed. Sometimes it gets you home, sometimes you take a trip through the twilight zone and end up in parts unknown. Sometimes it breaks the dam universe. Sometimes it generates a massive retcon. Someone get Doctor Doom on the phone, the time machine he sold Nick Fury is defective. No wait that explains everything! This was all some convoluted plan by Doctor Doom to something something evil plan! :L

The preceding unsigned comment was added by DCSarge (talk • contribs).

2) Doc Ock in Peter Parker's body is arguably now qualifies as a "hero"...number one flaw of villains is Arrogance, Ultron didn't think he could fail and had no reason to look for a secret base in the Savage Land with a time machine
3)I don't think just anyone has the ability to successfully use the Ultimate Nullifier against anyone they choose without the risk of destroying themselves and then some
11) I guess Wolverine knows something about his own weaknesses that we don't know? Or he's not dead.
12) Maybe an alternate timeline was created the first time, because Hank Pym dying had such drastic consequences, but when he went back again and stopped himself from killing Hank, and then they made the plan to stop Ultron, and then Hank made himself forget...everything was exactly the same as the original 616 except for the secret programming that nobody knew about. So everything else happened exactly the same up until the events we saw in issue #10...so basically the second try they were able to alter the timeline without creating a new one... Jedi.jesse (talk) 22:54, June 29, 2013 (UTC)
Ok, here's the thing; If you assume that the "erased" events that we read about took place in Earth 616, then either:

A) Earth 616 is effectively overun/destroyed by Ultron and the Marvel Primary universe is now set on a similar-but-not-quite-the-same universe (which I propose we call Earth-616 2.0) or B) Earth 616 was actually altered and that's why the multiverse "broke."

Problem is we have giant plots hole either way: Lemme make it as simple as I can.

Observe the linear logic: Ultron wrecks havoc -> DDTM jumps Wolverine backwards from the present of Universe-A (Which is the good-old Earth-616) to the past to Universe-A, where he kills Hank Pym thus creating Universe B -> DDTM jumps Wolverine forward to the present of Universe-B -> Wolverine tries to use DDTM to go back to the past of Universe-B again, only to find himself in the past of Universe-C where he stops another version of himself (from Universe-??) from killing Hank Pym. -> DDTM sends Wolverine forward to Universe D.

Plot hole #1: There can only be one Earth 616, so either it's Universe-A or Universe-D. Sorry Marvel but can't have your cake and eat it too. There's only one Earth-616. Otherwise, why number them at all?

Plot hole #2: If Universe-A is destroyed and the Wolverine of Universe-A is now on Universe-D, then why is Marvel insisting that not only is he still on Earth-A, but he somehow broke the universe???

If you're wondering why I don't say that Wolverine didn't kill his past self, OK let's say he did. Result: Another (huge) plot hole.

Observe the circular logic: In Instance One, Wolverine goes back in time to kill Hank Pym: Hank Pym dies. In Instance Two, Wolverine goes back in time to kill Hank Pym: Instead of killing said Hank Pym, he is killed by his older self from Instance One.

Well, if the Wolverine of Instance Two never killed Hank Pym then how did the Wolverine of Instance One kill Hank Pym and thus try to go back and prevent himself from killing Hank Pym? The only logical explanation is that Wolverine did not kill his younger self but rather he killed a wolverine from a different universe... and if that's the case, how is this wolverine-from-a-different-universe his own past self? Isn't he the past self of an alternate Wolverine? Then this did not create a paradox, and the universe didn't break. But Marvel insists that it did break because ???

That's what I get for trying to apply actual logic to comic-book logic: Nowhere. --DCSarge (talk) 06:21, July 5, 2013 (UTC)

MoveEdit

I think we should move this page for create a disambiguation page to Age of Ultron, like Civil War. Age of Ultron happened in some universes too.(Sorry for my english)--Primestar3 (talk) 12:30, April 6, 2014 (UTC)