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Talk:Mandarin (Earth-616)

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Michael Chen 21:29, 30 October 2008 (UTC)Can we get a better main picture? That picture is ancient, and uses one of his lamest costumes. I think something from the recent Iron Man story last year would be both cooler and more up-to-dateMichael Chen 21:29, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Tales of Suspense 54 Iron Man refers to him as "super-strong" and indeed Mandarin demonstrates this by karate-chopping through a thick steel wall and generally being treated as a hand-to-hand threat at least as much as a ring-threat. In Iron Man vol IV, issue #15, we find out Mandarin can go years without food or water. In Iron Man vol IV, his eyes glow, and he proceeds to rip thick stone slabs out of the floor, whip bullets out of the air, and pulp men with martial arts attacks. In Iron Man vol IV, issue 28, he kicks a dent in Iron Man's helmet, and breaks Iron Man's arm with a palm-strike. There's also indirect evidence, such as his son Temugin's flipping over a tank in Agents of Atlas #11. A different character, granted, but one clearly intended to be closely related to his father in abilities.

The character clearly has superhuman strength, superhuman ability to go without food and water, and enhanced speed and durability. His ratings of peak human simply don't jive with the comics at all. He easily warrants a 4 in all physical categories.

Giving him the grid of a true teleporter seems dubious to me. Him teleporting requires a special belt which he wears in less than a third of his appearances. Moreover, this device only allows him to escape, it's not a combat-teleport like Nightcrawler. Giving him a teleporter's grid seems dubious to me unless we are going to give everyone with teleportation tech that grid. Meaning the whole team of the Fantastic Four, the whole team of X-Men who possess Shi'ar teleportation tech, etc. See how this becomes problematic and even absurd?CajunKhan 00:57, April 23, 2010 (UTC)

Since when do the X-Men and Fantastic Four utilize teleportation technology? The ONLY time I've seen the X-Men teleport under their own will, it was with a mutant...unless they were being assisted by another team.
And Temugin was able to flip a tank due to cybernetic enhancements.
--GrnMarvl14 01:22, April 23, 2010 (UTC)

No, Temugin flipped the tank because he can Chi amp his strength. Read the book, he's boasting about his Chi, not his cybernetic hand.

And both teams have used teleportion tech, just not often enough for it to be considered standard gear or part of their powersets, which was kind of my point. The Mandarin doesn't wear the teleportion belt nearly often enough for it to be considered standard gear. Also, the fact that it can only be used to escape and not combat-teleport means it is not the sort of thing that belongs on his power-grid.CajunKhan 01:52, April 23, 2010 (UTC)

Just because he's boasting about his Chi doesn't mean he's actually using it. Temujin's a proud man who doesn't want to seem weak or dependent upon technological advances. Similar to why he isn't too willing to accept help from the other Agents.
Combat-teleport or just escape doesn't really factor in. Pixie needs to concentrate to teleport, yet I'm sure she'll get that stat in her individual entry (when she eventually gets one). And, again, I honestly don't EVER remember the X-Men teleporting without a mutant (with the exception of Cable...for a bit). Heck, in the current stories they're COMPLETELY dependent upon mutants. Mandarin's teleportation stat is likely based on the last sentence in his entry "it's assumed he teleported to safety." Which would mean he's currently using teleportation technology, which would make the stat valid, even if he's not using it all the time, the fact that he seemingly used it in his last appearance might indicate new, active use of it.
--GrnMarvl14 02:24, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
Do we have a precedent for changing the power grid based on observations from the comics as opposed to handbook values? Seems to me to be opening a pandora's can of worms (sorry, bad metaphor alarm)? And correct me if I'm wrong: If anything, this would concern the speed stat only, right?
Problem with changing the power grid based on observations in the comics is...how do you know you've seen everything? And how do you know what you're seeing isn't just an aberration based on that writer or artist's mistake? Not to mention things being retconned into exaggerated events and random duplicates and technological enhancements.
--GrnMarvl14 15:47, April 23, 2010 (UTC)

It would concern all the physical stats. And it can't be just one writer or artist mistake, because it has been portrayed this way for nearly fifty years, including by Stan Lee. Seriously, it's in a Stan Lee written issue that Iron Man calls him super-strong, and later says that his strength rivals the armor's. And that has been backed up as recently as issues 17-28 in the Knaufs run, where he displays superhuman strength several times, including breaking Iron Man's arm and kicking a dent in his helmet. He also displays greatly superhuman ability to go without food and water, doing so for years.CajunKhan 17:56, April 23, 2010 (UTC)

Going with food and water isn't something measured on the power grid. It's not durability, since that's about taking damage. That's more survivability. Though it IS specifically mentioned in his abilities entry in his last Handbook entry. And in his last appearances...wasn't he heavily using technology, including the Extremis virus?
--GrnMarvl14 19:25, April 23, 2010 (UTC)

No, he wasn't. In fact he lacked the gene to survive using the Extremis virus. He was going to use it to wipe out most of humanity, not use it on himself. He's repeatedly been stated to have super-strength, including in stories written by Stan Lee. He's displayed super-strength as recently as the story just a couple of years ago. He has super-strength.

Also, the rings are weapons, not powers.CajunKhan 21:13, April 23, 2010 (UTC)

Actually, his ability to break steel is mentioned as being a martial arts ability. Which makes sense. Shaolin Monks are capable of similar things, and they're certainly not superhuman (though extremely impressive). The capability comes from punching sand (and I believe harder objects) to grow calluses on the hand to strengthen it.
And if you're going to remove the rings from his powers section (understandable), move the info to abilities or weapons, or some other more appropriate section.
--GrnMarvl14 21:15, April 23, 2010 (UTC)

Books>old Bios, Books>Old Bios, BOOKS>>OLD BIOS. The books say super-strength outright, the books display super-strength outright, now unless you have books, BOOKS, not old bios, BOOKS to back up your position, please, please, please leave my edits alone!CajunKhan 22:56, April 23, 2010 (UTC)

Also, the rings already have a mention under weapons.

The Power Grid COMES from a bio. Why change it on what individual issues say? Descriptive things like specific powers, abilities, etc. surely deserve to be judged on an issue-by-issue basis, but things that go on a Power Grid, heights, and weights, are things that fluctuate fairly highly from creative team to creative team. While discussion of them is always warranted and welcome, it's really best to let official material decide those.
--GrnMarvl14 00:03, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

I know it comes from a bio. I've been saying that BOOKS>bios. Books are more important than bios. Bios should reflect books, not repeat the mistakes of older bios. *sigh* My god, why is this so hard to understand? If books say Superman has superhuman strength, and a bio says he doesn't, the bio is wrong and needs to be changed to reflect the books. That's common sense. And this hasn't been inconsistent. Writers as early as Stan Lee, and a late as the Knaufs in his most recent appearance, and have had him do superhuman feats. Stan Lee has him called super-strong, and says he has strength rivaling the armor. That is right in the books, and trumps any bio. I have supplied issue numbers to back my view. Either provide issue numbers to books that contradict what I have said, or concede the issue. Not bios, issue numbers of Mandarin appearances in the actual books.

Why couldn't his feats be those of martial arts, like I've pointed out? Drawing on Chi is what certain martial artists do. Chi's just inner strength. Iron Fist doesn't have superhuman strength (doesn't even have peak human strength), but when he draws upon his Chi he can do tremendous damage. He can't lift cars above his head, but he can put a hole in one. That's not physical strength, that's a martial ability. Again, there are real world examples of this, yet we don't have superhuman strength in the real world. We have people who can bend metal rods with their bare hands. Pull buses with their ears. These things all fall within the realm of human ability, and if power gridded, wouldn't go above a 3. And, in fact, we might even REFER to these people AS "super strong"...when their abilities are still very human.
Now, why not trust individual issues? Because you say you've seen issues with Mandarin denting Iron Man's armor. But we've seen Iron Man fight the Hulk and Thor and NOT have his armor dented. Now...which is the exception? One issue with Mandarin denting his armor, or a few issues where his armor's not dented by beings who are, and I'm sure you'll agree, far stronger? I trust bios above individual issues because they weed out the stuff that doesn't jive up with the rest. You don't have to agree with me. You're welcome to disagree. You DO need to realize, however, that individual issues MIGHT be wrong. I'm not saying ARE. I'm saying MIGHT. And that individual issues, especially early issues, often get watered down and/or changed over time. Not by Handbook writers, but by other comic writers who handle the same characters. Things change. What Handbooks do is attempt to combine all of these changes together. Sometimes, things get left out because they just don't work fit with the majority of other instances. Could that change? Sure. And it's not uncommon that they do. But what they offer is a unique perspective not burdened by a single issue's events. And, when it comes to powers, it's not individual issues that count, it's how they appear overall. Just like Professor X's long-lost telekinetic abilities, and Thor's long-lost time-travel abilities.
--GrnMarvl14 01:18, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

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