Talk: Harold Osborn (Earth-616)

Full Name

Can we please put a stop to the editing of Harry's full name? His middle name is Theopolis, so his real name should read "Harold Theopolis Osborn"; not "Harold "Harry" Osborn". How is "Harry" part of a "real name"? It's a nickname, and you don't even need to know the character to realize that. MaGnUs 19:55, January 10, 2011 (UTC)

Often, common shortenings of first names are listed in that manner. It's nothing new. It's so you don't have to note it somewhere else as a separate alias (since, technically, it's not. It's just a shortening of the name). His last Handbook entry, for instance, lists his name as Harold Theopolis "Harry" Osborn.

--GrnMarvl14 21:44, January 10, 2011 (UTC)

Harry Lyman

In Amazing Spider-Man vol 3 3, Harry mentions that he changed his name legally to Harry Lyman. Anubhavkumarc (talk) 17:13, November 4, 2015 (UTC)

His name may have legally changed, but I really don't think anyone's going to just start switching their search to "Lyman" given the character's decades of history using "Osborn". I suggest we list the Lyman name as an alias, like a nickname, and redirect searches to the existing Osborn page. The Overlord (talk) OverlordOfEvil 03:35, December 17, 2015

That is not how things work. If his legal name is now Harold Lyman, that should be the name of his page according to our site's Naming Conventions.
--The ADour-incible ADour (talk) 19:31, December 17, 2015 (UTC)

Then we should discuss changing the site's Naming Conventions. It seems they're leading to a result which is counter-intuitive for searches and new visitors, while providing no identifiable benefit. Monolith616 (talk) 20:36, December 17, 2015 (UTC)

The admin team is currently discussing some broad changes to our naming conventions, one of which includes how we handle legal names and name changes. I've removed the move tag for now, but we will attend to the page as needed once we finish our discussions. --Spencerz (talk) 02:41, March 13, 2016 (UTC)

Kindred

Now that it has been revealed that Harry is Kindred in Last Remains, the pages of the two characters have to be merged.- The preceding unsigned comment was added by Shadowstorm999 (talk • contribs).

While I agree, further details missing about how he actually became Kindred can be added later. How should we organize the Kindred section tho? With the Brand New Day retcon, or starting at Vol 5 Back to Basics arc when he killed Mendel Stromm?
--Jonmor93 (talk) 23:45, January 13, 2021 (UTC)

I added some info from Kindred's page to Harold Osborn's as hidden text, so I think I might have fixed your problem. HipperMario (talk) 07:10, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

I haven't really been following Amazing Spider-Man, but has it been revealed how Kindred relates to the Harry Osborn we've seen alive and well, putting his live back together ever since the cosmic retcon of One More Day? Even in-universe it's acknowledged there's a disconnect between Kindred's obsession with revenge against Peter and Harry Osborn being all buddy-buddy towards him. Is the post-OMD Harry a clone and Kindred the original (which IMO would make the most sense out of any explanation at this point)? Or has Harry just been pretending to be a good guy (and alive) all these years while secretly being a demon hellbent on revenge... and if it's the latter, why the heck did he wait so long to strike? Ascha'Vovina (talk) 08:06, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Bad writing? I dunno, I and some other user talked about this in his blog post about theories regarding Kindred. HipperMario (talk) 07:17, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Everything with the latest editions seems to imply that there are two Harrys: the original, who died after a fit of madness in the legendary Spectacular Spider-Man # 200 and what was created as a result of the change in reality made by Mephisto when he made the agreement to eliminate the marriage Peter and Mary Jane in exchange for saving Aunt May from a killer's bullet. It is worth remembering that it is not known exactly what happened when Mephisto rewrote reality. . Cast to Hell for his sins, Harry would have watched with fury as the timeline was changed and a new, living Harry took his place, one who got his life together, rebuilt his marriage, and became a father to his son Normie. No doubt this was actually Mephisto's real endgame with "One More Day," a (literally) fiendish way of torturing Peter Parker. The twisted and vengeful Harry has now been unleashed upon the world as Kindred, and his wrath towards Spider-Man knows no bounds.- The preceding unsigned comment was added by Maualexandre (talk • contribs).

It should be mentioned that after Kindred was captured Norman told him that he would take care of his sons during his absence, meaning that the Harry who was taking care of Normie and Stanley and was with Liz is now gone, suggesting that there is now only one Harry now. HipperMario (talk) 07:04, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

This is stated in Amazing Spider-Man (Vol. 5) #56 to be more explicit. HipperMario (talk) 11:26, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

Really, there seems to be only one Harry now and it is even possible that the additional corpse that Cooper recognized is a duplicate Harry. And given his comments before being arrested at Darkforce, Kindred wants Peter to remember his deal with Mephisto and will culminate in revealing how he became a demon when reality was rewritten.- The preceding unsigned comment was added by Maualexandre (talk • contribs).

After reading Amazing Spider-Man Volume 5 and the latest issue, I would recommend keeping Kindred and Harry Osborn separate as recent events in ASM 58 hinted that there could be TWO versions of Harry Osborn. Likely a result of the deal from One More Day as the infamous event is routinely cited, as well as the involvement of the Lifeline Tablet being a key component in whatever dark chicanery Fisk and Kindred (and by extension Mephisto) might be planning.
--Jonmor93 (talk) 03:40, January 29, 2021 (UTC)

It's still unclear whether Kindred is the same Harry Osborn we've seen running around with Stanley. If Harry Osborn was transformed into a demon, it most likely would've been right after his "death" way back in Spectacular Spider-Man #200. But the version of Harry who fathered Stanley and became American Son was clearly still human, mortal, and powerless. So either he became a demon at some indeterminate later point (unlikely), or Kindred is a different version of Harry who really did perish in SSM 200. Maybe he's from an alternate timeline that was changed as a result of OMD, maybe he's a fragment of Harry's soul that split off during the near-death experience. We just don't know yet. I vote that the two pages should be kept separate unless/until we find out more. Shadowstorm999 (talk) 00:05, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

Agreed. It is likely Kindred could be HALF of Harry's soul, or a version of Harry from another reality, or a demon with just his memories before Norman rez'd him. We don't know yet and need to wait for more story reveal by Spencer.
--Jonmor93 (talk) 00:10, February 26, 2021 (UTC)

Given the events of issue 59 and 60, it is practically explicit that Mephisto, in rewriting reality, left the original Harry in hell and created a duplicate of it. I now believe that the facts that led to Harry's transformation into Kindred will be fundamental for Doctor Strange to help Peter remember the events on One More Day so that they are finally undone.- The preceding unsigned comment was added by Maualexandre (talk • contribs).

"PRACTICALLY Explicit" would thus equal Implicit in this instance. Given all the machinations Mephisto goes through to coerce a soul from someone, it would be best to wait until complete verification in the comics before making the assertion. For all we know, Kindred could be Harry from another timeline. We should wait and see.
--Jonmor93 (talk) 20:40, March 4, 2021 (UTC)

What about how Doctor Strange referred to how he managed to track Kindred? He practically left it indicated that the demon is really Harry Osborn from OMD.- The preceding unsigned comment was added by Maualexandre (talk • contribs).

Please be aware that the "Unsigned" template is used to denote that a message is unsigned, it's not the way to sign messages.
--The ADour-incible ADour (talk) 19:33, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

I'm going to go ahead and eventually merge the Kindred and Harry Osborn pages. Yes, there is a lot we don't know surrounding Harry and Kindred, but the one thing that is certain is that Harry is Kindred, so his page should properly reference that. The things that we don't know, like the specifics of Harry's transformation, will be treated as unknowns.
--The ADour-incible ADour (talk) 23:22, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Kindred might not be Harry

Just got to ASM v5 #66... I know Spencer's overall arc isn't done, I know we shouldn't make any massive changes now, I'm just going to start to point out that this issue casts doubt about Harry and Kindred truly being one and the same. To me, it's looking like a Stevil Rogers scenario, where we were initially led to believe one character had changed dramatically, but is later revealed to just be a separate counterpart. Not surprising since... you know, both stories were written by the same guy. I had believed all this from the very start, but these pages were merged by an admin. I'm just making this comment to maybe get a conversation rolling, or at the very least start to plant the idea that these pages may need to unmerge as Spencer's run goes on.Ben 1,000,911 (talk) 23:34, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

I get the idea of "Harry =/= Kindred" but since Chameleon Conspiracy is the next arc, it could also be Chameleon working with Kindred, and holding Carlie hostage in his own cell. I mean, the guy got a cell phone in black site detention, so we don't know yet. Harry & Kindred as 2 distinct persons seems like the most plausible idea, but Spencer leads up such ideas before blindsiding with a twist. He's banking & playing on our expectations during his run. But I can see him making such a twist with Harry & Kindred. Jonmor93 (talk) 00:06, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

The pages were merged on the principle of Occam's razor. We were told and shown that Kindred was Harry Osborn, so the wiki was adjusted to reflect that. The possibility that there could be more to it wasn't ignored, it was left to deal for the time that possibility actually became a reality.
--The ADour-incible ADour (talk) 00:19, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

With the added hindsight, I now also believe the move to have been a bad idea. Reading about Kindred Harry keeping Human Harry as prisoner with another Corpse Harry in the mix is anything but elegant. HBK123 (talk) 22:11, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Two Harrys

Due to the revelations of AMS 66, 70 and 71, it seems clear that there are two Harrys, so it's best to split his page. The comments from both both and Mysterio also imply that Kindred is actually the original Harry while the one stuck with Carlie Cooper was created as part of Peter's deal with Mephisto.
--Maualexandre (talk) 19:37, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

While that might seem to be the case, we don't know what'll happen. So it's much more prudent to wait until Sinister War ends then take the revelations revealed to decide if Kindred keeps the harry Osborn primary page and if the human Harry gets a "Harry Lyman (Earth-616)" page for all those times Harry was around since Brand New Day. Let's hear what Daour & Nurdboy say before we do anything.
--Jonmor93 (talk) 23:50, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

You are right. It's just that the prospect that the events of One More Day are finally close to being undone makes me anxious.
--Maualexandre (talk) 17:39, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

I agree & feel the same. I usually voice my anxiousness in Discord to calm down and talk it out. Here's hoping Spencer does undo OMD, and Sins Past. I'm still praying for baby Mayday to be alive in canon too. But wee shall see.
--Jonmor93 (talk) 20:02, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

In this matter, I find it easier for Peter and Mary Jane to have their marriage restored than for their unborn daughter to come back that way. Remember MJ offered something to Mephisto also in OMD, it may well have been her unborn baby.
--Maualexandre (talk) 23:40, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

I'd rather MJ not sacrifice a baby. That's a darkness you cannot come back from. Besides, Harry would use that knowledge and torment Peter right before killing him. So let's see if she is alive (hopefully) and how the story plays out. I expect a play by Doc Strange that helps Peter behind the scenes.
--Jonmor93 (talk) 03:45, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

By the way Mephisto has hinted, he will only release Peter from the deal if Strange wins a mystic bet against the devil.
--Maualexandre (talk) 14:25, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

With the release of AMS 72, I think it's right now to split the Kindred and Harry pages, it's already pretty clear that there are TWO HARRYS.
--Maualexandre (talk) 22:15, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

I agree on the TWO HARRYS, but with the ambiguity and allusion of another twist on the identity in ASM 72, Kindred could either be Harry using a brainwashed Chameleon agent, or another Chameleon manipulating an LMD? We don't know the whole Kindred story JUST yet, so once ASM 74 & maybe 75 drop, then it might be fair for Admins to split Kindred & Harry.
--Jonmor93 (talk) 01:40, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Now it's official adm, PLEASE! With the release of AMS 73, I think it's right now to split the Kindred and Harry pages, it's already pretty clear that there are TWO HARRYS.
--Maualexandre (talk) 11:34, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Well it's confirmed original Harry died & his damned soul is inhabiting a genetically stable Sarah Stacy, but we can assume about the other human Harry until the final verification in ASM 74 on 22 Sept. Just wait 2 more weeks THEN you can have the cake. Let's have an official confirmation foremost.
--Jonmor93 (talk) 03:08, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Can people just learn to be patient? --1137a (AL) (Earth-1218) (talk) 08:32, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Anyway, with the (imminent) division of the pages, I wanted to suggest that the original Harry clone page be called "Harry Lyman".
--Maualexandre (talk) 19:39, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be more accurate to name him Harry Osborn (Clone) (Earth-616) instead? His legal name could be Harry Lyman, but the clone naming seems more apt.
--Jonmor93 (talk) 22:50, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

The tenative clone had also reclaimed the Osborn surname at the end of Slott's run. There is no reason to have his page be Lyman.
--The ADour-incible ADour (talk) 00:42, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

You're right, is that I related to the issue of other clones that are distinguished by their legal names.
--Maualexandre (talk) 00:17, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Demon form and host body? (from infobox) What issues? What happened?

Under physical characteristics in the infobox, it lists a "demon form" and a "host body" for Harry, but no references are provided, and it's not mentioned in the article text. What issues are those from? Part of the Kindred storyline? Or something else? And if Harry took a "host" while in hell or something, isn't that important enough to mention in the article itself? ==TimPendragon (talk) 18:22, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm certain that's a leftover from when readers were led to believe that Harry was Kindred. Feel free to remove it.
--ADour (talk) 20:46, 16 March 2024 (UTC)